How Not to Get Shot by a Soldier

How not to board a boat.. looking for contraband..

DO NOT FAST REPEL INTO AN ANGRY MOB.. you come up from the side.. well unless you are trying to make a propaganda piece then by all means fast repel into a crowd of angry people with sticks and knives.

then do not release cut up video of the event..especially when someone else has the rest of the video.

Do not cut up audio of the event, especially when it is so oviously done.

and for christ sakes, do not release a video making fun of the people killed, especially if you are trying to convince the planet, you have the high road covered.

Joules,

You left out one thing:

Do not overdose on the Kool-Aid. It will delude you in to the blind support of terrorist regimes.

you come up from the side..

also INTO AN ANGRY MOB .
Then you can be easily dumped into the sea .
You call that a strategy ?!

Lol talk about getting your ass kicked heh

How not to get hit with sticks and rocks....don't put on your pretty little uniform and illegally storm someone's ship after shooting at it. You have no right to storm someone's ship in international waters, b/c in international waters, you have NO JURISDICTION and you are literally nothing but a PIRATE.

And lo and behold....that's also the same way to avoid international criticism of you and your country! What a coincidence!

ironic you say that since you bought into the iDF's propaganda BS.

You're so silly -

you make me laugh...

Hahahaha

bonos_rama #1.7 ,

that's also the same way to avoid international criticism of you and your country!

Sticks and stones .... what's a little criticism .

b/c in international waters, you have NO JURISDICTION and you are literally nothing but a PIRATE.

But if you are TRULY a "pirate" you can get brought to the US, be provided for BETTER than you were at home, even IF you are in jail, be provided FREE(to you, the taxpayers of this country are paying for it) legal help, and you will find PLENTY of fools who will justify and excuse your actions in this country and blaming those YOU attacked.

You lefties are right-Israel should've torpedoed the boat instead?

You have no right to storm someone's ship in international waters, b/c in international waters, you have NO JURISDICTION and you are literally nothing but a PIRATE.

Its one thing to be uninformed-- but why flaunt the fact?

Because here are the actual facts about these incidents in International waters:

Israel, the Flotilla and International Waters

I direct your attention to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea. Specifically, paragraph 67-68:

(LINK)

bonos_rama

Don't fire rockets at your neighbor and threaten to kill all 6 million of them and you can have free trade.

How not to get hit with sticks and rocks....don't put on your pretty little uniform and illegally storm someone's ship after shooting at it. You have no right to storm someone's ship in international waters, b/c in international waters, you have NO JURISDICTION and you are literally nothing but a PIRATE.

And lo and behold....that's also the same way to avoid international criticism of you and your country! What a coincidence!

But here's the problem with your arguments, bonos-- the facts are finally starting to come out:

Kuwaiti Journalist: The Flotilla Was Violent; Israel Has a Right to Defend Itself

In a June 3, 2010 article in the daily Al-Watan, Kuwaiti journalist 'Abdallah Al-Hadlaq supported Israel's decision to stop the Gaza flotilla, saying that the outcome of the Israeli navy's operation was "in direct proportion to the violence" of the flotilla activists, and that th …

The question is not how not to get shot by a solider. It is how not to get shot by a terrorist.

Terrorism (n): the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Well, let's look at the facts. You probably don't know who is committing violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims in Israel. The fact is almost all the kidnaping, torture, invasion and death in Israel is committed by Israel on neighboring states, and on the part of their own people who do not share the dominant religion.

And these are all good people. Israelis, jewish and moslem, are the same as you and me. But Israel is a terrorist state, and we can end this debate simply by thinking about what would happen if this state were to visit this violence upon our own people.

Imagine, if you can, that the pacifists on those boats had been American. If an boat full of unarmed Americans was attacked by Israeli soldiers in international waters, its unarmed passengers were shot on sight, and the remaining unarmed passengers fought for their lives with whatever they had on the boat - oars and fire extinguishers.

Would you say these unarmed Americans were a violent flotilla, and that the attacking Israelis murdering unarmed Americans were just bravely defending themselves?

I am totally convinced now that the Liberal way of fighting terrorism is to drop to their knees and apologise to them. Joules and boons have totally convinced me of that fact. Personally I do not have a problem with Liberals or even Obama doing this, you never know it could work. Hell at even a 50/50 chance the end result in either case would be great for this country.

nothing illegal about stopping a ship intended for your shores; countries do it all the time TO PROTECT THEMSELVES.

Yes, there is, when the boat is in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. Too bad, so sad.

the only boat that had problems was the boat carrying terrorists on it; The other ones that came peacefully and cooperated with inspections, had no problems whatsoever

no problems whatsoever for who?

Conventional warfare has transformed into mostly civilians casualties(rate about 90%). Chances for survival increase by simply joining a conventional force.

You have your biases, I have mine.

I'm on the right side of history.

I like being there.

The host's protocol is evidently to divine positions for opposition, refer to to those as lying propagandists (while koolaid drinker is off limits), goad and bait insistently on those inventions, while mocking and avoiding any attempt to actually comprehend those who would bother to comment here.

You know, the terrorists don't seem to mind when it comes to blowing themselves up to destroy as many Israelis as they can...so why should anyone feel sorry for the terrorists if they are shot while they are attempting to attack soldiers?

Aren't they going to find themselves in paradise with all of those virgins they are wanting to spend eternity with??? Of course they really won't, but hey, isn't that what they believe? So whether they blow themselves up, or someone does it for them, seems all the same to me.

Please show me evidence that they were not terrorists.

I agree . They were not terrorists . However , they were jihadis .

Those who were on the flotilla should not have been violent towards the soldiers. I don't care what they had on board. Most people would know not to attack soldiers, that is an extremely foolish thing to do...so they got their butts kicked for it. Tough. Israel has the right to protect itself.

Most people would know not to attack soldiers, that is an extremely foolish thing to do

Not for a jihadi . They wanted to die for their cause . They got some help .

That's the point I made in #1.35...

They put themselves in that situation, than they get killed... then everyone else whines about the poor, poor dead person who was shot by a mean old soldier...

I don't feel sorry for them. They want to die...

gl!tch ,

OK , you want an unbiased source ? How about a cameraman for Al Jazeera TV .

if i was to jump on your boat with the intentions of hijacking it you wouldn't try to stop me?

Now you're just being ridiculous and biased . This was in no way a hijacking . What happened to the other 5 [4?] ships ?

the israelis had no intention of searching the ships

You must have an "in" with god almighty if you can know
someone's intentions ; either that or you're just spouting meaningless propaganda .

We both know it's the latter .

How do I know that ? I gave you an unbiased source .
You simply ignore it and move on to your next ploy .

From your news.yahoo link :

The military says it will intercept the ships, escort the vessels to shore .

Do you have evidence that did not happen ?

I just went through the article bit by bit and you said I ignored it?

You still haven't responded to it .

Glitch,

So when Israel offered to let the supplies pass through by land that was...?

When they offered the supplies to Gaza and they refused it was....?

These people were trying to run a blockade, it wasn't like they were just out for a pleasure cruise. They got stopped, a few people on one of the ships attacked the people doing the stopping and got what they deserved for it.

Back so soon,silver?...

@larrrs,

What terrorists? Last I heard, a terrorist was someone who strapped a bomb to themselves and blew up innocent people. Which of the people the Israelis attacked did that?

And if the murdered folk were terrorists, how come world leaders don't know it?

Statement from the Turkish foreign ministry:

By targeting innocent civilians, Israel has once again clearly displayed that does not value human lives and peaceful initiatives. We forcefully condemn these inhumane activities by Israel.

Statement from the White House:

US President Barack Obama "expressed deep regret at the loss of life in today's incident, and concern for the wounded" in a phone call to Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister.

Salam Fayad, Palestinian prime minister:

Israel went beyond all that could be expected. This is a transgression against all international covenants and norms and it must be confronted by all international forums.

Statement from the Arab League:

We call on the international community to take immediate steps against Israel, a rogue state that practises all forms of terrorism and piracy, and instigates tension and instability in the region and in the middle of the Mediterranean sea.

Statement from Chinese foreign ministry:.

"We were shocked by the Israeli naval attack on the Turkish flotilla carrying humanitarian goods to Gaza which led to severe casualties and condemn it," Ma Zhaoxu, a foreign ministry spokesman, said.

Jens Stoltenberg, Norwegian prime minister:

A military attack against civilian activists is totally unacceptable. We are shocked at the news that Israeli naval forces have attacked ships bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Statement from Brazilian foreign ministry:

Brazil condemns, in vehement terms, the Israeli action, given that there was no justification for a military intervention on a peaceful convoy of a strictly humanitarian character.

Saad Hariri, Lebanese prime minister:

The Israeli attack on the aid convoy is a dangerous and crazy step that will exacerbate tensions in the region. Lebanon firmly denounces this attack and calls on the international community, notably major powers ... to take action in order to end this continued violation of human rights and threat to international peace.

Spokesperson for EU's foreign policy chief:

High Representative Catherine Ashton expresses her deep regret at the news of loss of life and violence and extends her sympathies to families of the dead and wounded.

Ambassadors from the 27 EU countries:

The EU condemns the use of violence that has produced a high number of victims among the members of the flotilla and demands an immediate, full and impartial inquiry into the events and the circumstances surrounding it.

Guido Westerwelle, German foreign minister:

I am deeply concerned about the events last night in the waters off Gaza ... These are disconcerting initial reports.

Diego Lopez Garrido, Spain's secretary of state for EU affairs:

The Israeli storming of a flotilla of activist ships heading for Gaza is unacceptable and very serious event.

Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, Emir of Qatar:
The Israeli act of piracy against Arab and foreign activists who tried to break an non humanitarian unjust siege imposed on our fellow citizens in Gaza Strip, for no reason but they exercised their democratic right of choice.

Micheal Martin, Irish foreign minister:

I am gravely concerned at the reports emerging of the storming of a Turkish ship this morning by Israeli commandos. [...] The reports of up to 15 people killed and 50 injured, if confirmed, would constitute a totally unacceptable response by the Israeli military to what was a humanitarian mission attempting to deliver much needed supplies to the people of Gaza.

Navi Pillay, UN high commissioner for human right:

I am shocked by reports that humanitarian aid was met with violence early this morning reportedly causing death and injury as the boat convoy approached the Gaza coast. The blockade keeps undermining human rights on a daily basis.

Franco Frattini, Italian foreign minister:

Italy deplores the loss of civilian life in Israel's raid on a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza.

Statement from the UN Relief and Works Agency:

We are shocked by reports of killings and injuries of people on board boats carrying supplies for Gaza, apparently in international waters.

William Hague, British foreign minister:

I deplore the loss of life during the interception of the Gaza Flotilla. [...] There can be no better response from the international community to this tragedy than to achieve urgently a durable resolution to the Gaza crisis.

Ebrahim Ebrahim, South African junior foreign minister:

The recall of ambassador Ishmael Coovadia is to show our strongest condemnation of the attack. This recent Israel aggression of attacking the aid flotilla severely impacts on finding a lasting solution to the problems of the region

Ivo Josipovic, Croatian president:

The Republic of Croatia expresses its deep regret over the loss of lives and injuries of civilians resulting from the Israeli military action in the international waters against the ship convoy bound for the Gaza Strip. Croatia expresses condolences to the families of the diseased and strongly condemns the use of violence.

Larrrs, what do you know about members of the humanitarian convoy that the leaders of South Africa, Lebanon, Norway, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Croatia, Italy, Qatar, Spain, Brazil, China, Turkey, Lebanon, Palestine, the Arab League, the EU Parliament and the UN don't know?

By targeting innocent civilians, Israel has once again clearly displayed that does not value human lives and peaceful initiatives. We forcefully condemn these inhumane activities by Israel.

That is the pot calling the kettle black! Inhumane activities? That is rich!!! Lol!

Israel has the right to protect its borders.

Bonos, you need to keep in mind that sticks and stones may break some bones but guns will truly mess you up.

not much in this seed.

Sounds like you're leaving.

Bye.

#1.56 ,

that is hijacking

Not according to the San Remo accords .

if the US was taking Israel's actions and mentality we be bombing Mexico and imposing a blockade

How did you jump from hijacking to bombing ? And BTW ,

Have you read the recent news from Mexico about the border patrol killing teenagers ?

Under Sam Remo you cannot blockade your own country and use that as justification for boarding ships in international waters. You also can't detain certified aid ships in international waters even with a valid blockade of a foreign port.

They should have waited until they crossed into Israeli waters where everything becomes fair game.

Its funny, I just read the San Remo Manual last night and its pretty clear that some people havent taken the time to do that.

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;

(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;

(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;

(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or

(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

68. Any attack on these vessels is subject to the basic rules in paragraphs 38-46.

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea

And under Elmer Fudd there is a sign that says Wascawy Wabbits its hunting season. You people treat this as its some sort of game with rules and nice little conventions. Someone forgot to mention to the terrorists that there are rules. Till we quit treating it like a game, we are doing nothing more than putting innocent lives in peril. Wake the **** up!

To start... an aid ship is not a merchant ship. It has a different classification under San Remo. Second the clause your'e trying to apply 67(a) isn't applicable in international waters because a blockade of your own waters doesn't apply.

To start look up the definition of merchant ship in San Remo which is

(i) merchant vessel means a vessel, other than a warship, an auxiliary vessel, or a State vessel such as a customs or police vessel, that is engaged in commercial or private service;

I see nothing in SR under blockades which prohobits blockading your own country like you claim.. but I did see this

98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

Maybe you should try researching your position because as it is I think youre seriously misinformed

And the Trojan Horse was not really a cleverly guised plan to infilitrate the city of Troy either. Love playing games don't ya?

taoo youre not even bothering to talk about the subject at hand.. I believe that's called trolling

Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured

A vessel well in international waters is not in the act of breaching a blockade. Look further in San Remo and you'll find a large section dedicated to aid ships separate from merchant ships. There's a specific clause which excludes them from boarding. I'll see if I can track it down.

Look further in San Remo and you'll find a large section dedicated to aid ships separate from merchant ships. There's a specific clause which excludes them from boarding.

Irrelevant as it turns out . There was No Humanitarian Aid on Mavi Marmara .

Here we go:

136. The following vessels are exempt from capture: (e) vessels charged with religious, non-military scientific or philanthropic missions

There's also a proportionality clause regarding armed response. If Israel initiated the attack as some say, they're clearly in the wrong, and if they didn't and there response was not proportional and created an avoidable loss of life they're in the wrong.

The following vessels are exempt from capture: (e) vessels charged with religious, non-military scientific or philanthropic missions

But how does one distinguish between such vessels and ones carrying
armaments ?

Or in the case of the Mavi Marmara , there was no aid on board .

To call what the gang on that ship philanthropic is to be very
charitable about your interpretation of the events .

There wasn't aid as pointed out above by nonStitiousZealot.. besides even according to the SR they can still board and check if they have "reasonable grounds" and that is a really vague term that gives any state permission to check out a ship even if its not in its waters..

Why is this thread still active? I already presented the solution.

Those people with rocks and sticks, had they been a part of a conventional force would have had a much higher rate of survival.

I have a feeling that this thread is to justify the expansion of world war three over dwindling resources. It's one way to do it, but you are only fooling yourself if you think you are on the side of good(and I mean both sides here).

Tell me if this article is really a joke? "Nice people in uniform" What?

This title of article should be read like this, "How to defend yourself from the enemy". Simple.

SA,

Somehow, it does not surprise me that you'd consider a police officer an enemy.

Solidarity Nite
taoo youre not even bothering to talk about the subject at hand.. I believe that's called trolling

Awww the old well you don't agree with me you must be trolling statement. Yeah, thats always effective.

Again, you people have no clue. You want to make this a game while terrorists and those who supply terrorists run free and do as they will. Again the terrorists do not give a damn about what maritime rules you want to quote. They don't give a damn about the Geneva Convention. They care not about what is humane or not humane. Show me the strength of your convictions. Go to the West Bank and tell them how you think they are being treated so unfairly. Go into the mountains of Pakistan seek out Al Qaeda and the Taliban and tell them how you are just so against countries violating their rights. Let me know how that turns out for ya.

The one thing we can totally be sure of is that terrorist organizations love you people. Anyone that can further their cause must not be to bad right?

Hmm.. taao.. by your logic are you saying that in order to defeat the terrorists the US must become the terrorist?

Mission accomplished.

Larrrs, what do you know about members of the humanitarian convoy that the leaders of South Africa, Lebanon, Norway, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Croatia, Italy, Qatar, Spain, Brazil, China, Turkey, Lebanon, Palestine, the Arab League, the EU Parliament and the UN don't know?

But i think that you are assuming they don't know.

I think they know full well.

But they also know the Arabs and Iran have the oil-- and Israel has none. (Even American politicians know that!).

They also know that there are 20+ Arab countries, and some 50+ Muslim countries-- all or most of which have votes in the UN....

@Larrrs,

What I know is that I have no voters, opinion polls, cooperate interests, or elections to concern myself with.

You're saying democracy makes people into liars? That all the democracies that have decried the killing of innocent aid workers by Israelis are just lying about it?

I know that I, like many Americans, are able to simply discern the truth by being observant; and , honest in my desire to solely protect my family and community.

What truth did you observe? I know that I, like many Americans, simply discerned a bunch of unarmed aid workers being slaughtered, fighting for their lives with sticks and stones.

Are you saying you desire to protect your community from pacifists throwing sticks and stones at soldiers half a world away?

Maybe you justify your support of state terrorism through this weird idea of intercontinental ballistic sticks and stones?

But I didn't discern any ICBSSes in the hands of the pacifist humanitarian murder victims. Did you?

If you didn't, what do you desire to protect your family from now?

Dragon1986

Hmm.. taao.. by your logic are you saying that in order to defeat the terrorists the US must become the terrorist?

Mission accomplished.

Nope not what I am saying at all, but if your typical liberal twist and spin can be applied here. Well you just go right ahead and knock yourself out there bubba and have fun with it.

Jalmeno,Any police officer is not an enemy if one does not shoot to kill for no apparent reason. What happened with flotilla was murder and unjustified. Simple.

I am saying my definition is not determined by financial gain or by political expediency. I am saying that we and Israel are allies and also share common enemies. I am saying that they were not innocent aid workers; and, that by capitulating to their interests, we are encouraging more terrorism against us and Israel.

Translation: The US needs a proxy state to fight it's proxy wars against all the other proxy states backed by the US's rivals(Russia/China).

taao - If I'm a liberal then that must make you mickey mouse.

SA,

The terrorists on the boat waited for the soldiers to rappell down, and attacked them.

So the soldiers defended themselves.

Simple.

larrs, this informative article should be translated and widely distributed as part of the recommended campaign of mocking and deriding terrorists.

@Larrrs,

we and Israel are allies and also share common enemies

We have no business in the middle east except ensuring American oil supplies. There are no allies, no enemies, just oil sources and risks to oil sources. The Saudis are our "allies" despite the fact that they funded, organised, staffed and executed 9/11. That's because they sit on the largest oil reservoirs in the world.

As for Israel, they are simply using us, nothing more.

#1.86 ,

The Saudis are our "allies" despite the fact that they funded, organised, staffed and executed 9/11. That's because they sit on the largest oil reservoirs in the world.

No argument there .

As for Israel, they are simply using us, nothing more.

Sometimes cynicism works . Sometimes it doesn't

Well I would suggest that using each other is what allies do

We use Israel? What have they done for us lately?

Um, yeah, except Israel is in the hole to us for $114 Billion as of 2008. You're quoting gross exports - even if we assume 10% profit on those, Israel is still sucking real hard on our tax teats:

since 1982, U.S. aid to Israel has been transferred in one lump sum at the beginning of each fiscal year, which immediately begins to collect interest in U.S. banks. Aid that goes to other countries is disbursed throughout the year in quarterly installments.

Second, Israel is not required to account for specific purchases. Most countries receive aid for very specific purposes and must account for how it is spent. Israel is allowed to place US aid into its general fund, effectively eliminating any distinctions between types of aid. Therefore, U.S. tax-payers are helping to fund an illegal occupation, the expansion of colonial-settlement projects, and gross human rights violations against the Palestinian civilian population.

A third difference is the sheer amount of aid the U.S. gives to Israel, unparalleled in the history of U.S. foreign policy. Israel usually receives roughly one third of the entire foreign aid budget, despite the fact that Israel comprises less than .001 of the worldÿs population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. In other words, Israel, a country of approximately 6 million people, is currently receiving more U.S. aid than all of Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined [...]

In addition to nearly $3 billion in direct aid, Israel usually gets another $3 billion or so in indirect aid: military support from the defense budget, forgiven loans, and special grants. While some of the indirect aid is difficult to measure precisely, it is safe to say that Israelÿs total aid (direct and indirect) amounts to at least five billion dollars annually.

5 Billion Dollars in a lump sum every year - that's over $1600 annual taxes for every American man, woman, and child. This isn't bankers and their trillions of funny money - it's cold cash. So tell me again - what do we get for paying the Israel tax?

We use Israel? What have they done for us lately?

What has any country that receives our aid done for us lately ?

Also , you have finally revealed your bias . The source you used for
the above articles is very biased . For example this article

talks in favorable terms about the Muslim Brotherhood .
This has been a dangerous terrorist group for many years .
It threatens many countries and the world would be a much safer place
without it ; but this article never mentions this one most important fact
about it --- clearly biased . That you refer to them first and last and only clearly shows your bias .
We are now onto you .

@nonStitiousZealot

That you refer to them first and last and only clearly shows your bias. We are now onto you.

Here's a helpful link. It explains why ad-hominem, ad-populam and poisoning-the-well are fallacies. I suggest you study it and come back with an actual argument. There's a good fellow.

@Larrrs,

The intelligence on the MiG-21 was shared with Washington and would prove to be extremely valuable, considering the fact that the MiG-21 was the work-horse of the North Vietnamese Air Force

Ah yes, the fearsome North Vietnamese airforce. Gigantic Soviet B-52s carpet-bombing South Vietnam. And after a short, profitable war the Israeli-led Americans completely defeated the North Vietnamese ... is that it?

the intelligence the U.S. received from Israel could not have been obtained if the U.S. had "five CIAs."

Israeli intelligence operatives like these guys? Mossad agents pretending to light cigarettes from the smoking WTC towers - and dancing to celebrate the consequent collapse - those are the guys you want every American to pay $1600 to each and every year?

Israel was helping save American lives in Iraq.

The Iraq war didn't help America in the slightest. It's a war we fought entirely for the benefit of Israel. It cost America over $3 Trillion to fight this war for Israel. Is Israel going to pay us back that $3 Trillion? Because I kind of think we could use it now ...

I have many and various examples Peter and will gladly share them.

That would be great, Larrrs. Any example where Israel actually pays us back some of our Trillions would be fine.

Peter Merel ,

Thanks for the link . However I stand by what I said . The web site
you chose to give "estimates" of aid to Israel is clearly biased .
I am merely expressing my doubts as to the accuracy of the numbers
they gave . I am equally expressing my doubts as to your bias based
on your choice of such a website . In my book you are now permanently
marked as "do not trust his comments" .
I am not poisoning-the-well so much as testing your well of information
and finding the waters to be muddied and possibly toxic .

If you wish to refute my opinion , you have but to point to even ONE
article on that site that has something positive to say about Israel .
If you can't find even one , then the bias is obvious .
You are welcome to disprove my claim based on
this very low standard of evidence .

BTW , the additional links you just gave are of similar low quality
and unbelievability . Again you are demonstrating your bias .

Peter Merel ,

From your link :

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

It should be clear to the readers that I have not made an Ad Hominem attack upon you . I have merely expressed my doubts about the accuracy of your sources and my doubts about the soundness of your decision to use such a source . Your calling my comment Ad Hominem is nothing but a red herring . [see the same link] .

@nonStitiousZealot,

There are two ways you can logically refute an argument. One is to demonstrate a flaw in someone's reasoning. The other is to demonstrate that one or another fact used as a basis for their argument is incorrect. You have done neither of these things.

If you wish to refute my opinion , you have but to point to even ONE

That's the point of identifying a fallacy - one is not obliged to refute a fallacy.

It should be clear to the readers that I have not made an Ad Hominem attack upon you

When you assert that I am biased, you are obviously making an ad hominem. Ad hominem is generally forbidden by the Newsvine Code Of Honor.

Then again points of honor have little to do with Israel. Rather than apologizing, I'd prefer you direct your attention to the matter at hand. Facts, sources, logical reasoning, Mr Zealot, would be very welcome.

@Larrrs,

you don't like Israel, you don't approve of our relationship with her and all the evidence I have given, you attempt to either discredit, discount or ignore.

I have no lack of affection for Israel or israelis. But Israel has invaded and continually occupies land owned by its neighbors. It exerts tyrannical control over the majority of its population - that majority being Palestinian. No thinking person can respect such criminal policies.

As for your evidence, you've asserted that Israel provides us with military intelligence, and I don't dispute they have. But I naturally question the value of this intelligence when it only contributes to useless and unwinnable wars.

To the point, I asked you what Israel has done for US. To be more specific, I am asking you what Israel has done for us that actually improves the lives of our American people. What has Israel done that is worth the vast sum of money we've poured into Israel? How will Israel return these vast sums of money we have lent it? And how will it repay the still vaster sums of money we have spent on wars on its behalf?

None of your evidence answers these questions, Larrrs. So what am I to do with it? Would you like me to applaud your inability to answer me? I can only continue to ask that you focus your mind on these matters and see if you can come up with something to the point.

Facts, not red herrings. It is not my purpose to slam you or to slam Israel - it's my purpose to learn.

#1.88 ,

it's my purpose to learn.

You have shown that your one purpose is to deny any evidence
shown to you and present biased links . This is nothing but propaganda .

When you assert that I am biased, you are obviously making an ad hominem. Ad hominem is generally forbidden by the Newsvine Code Of Honor.

Again I direct the readers to #1.85 .
If you can prove Ad hominem I invite you to complain to NV
management . Of course you can't .

Whoops! I wrote,

It exerts tyrannical control over the majority of its population - that majority being Palestinian.

I misremembered - consulting wikipedia it looks like the Israeli Palestinians are a minority - about 40% of the population. This is because the majority of Palestinians have emigrated - there are about 10 million of them worldwide.

larrrs

Big list o' stuff

Yea? Well, uh...... name 36 more things!

...I don't know if a 136 more would make a difference with some.

To a closed mind, Israelis could cure cancer and AIDS at the same time while saving a busload of orphans on Passover and still be evil.

@nonStitious Zealot

In the absence of logical argument, I'll disregard your posts from here onward. Sorry about that, but it seems like I'd be wasting my time doing otherwise. Best regards and so on.

@Larrrs,

Thanks for that. Let me see ...

1. Martin Cooper invented the cell phone. He was born in Chicago and educated at the university of Illinois.

2. Windows NT and XP are notoriously buggy, riddled with insecurities and instabilities. Not exactly a claim to fame. Compared with the rock solid Mac OSX, or any UNIX descendant (UNIX was developed right here in the USA by Ken Thompson and his fellow engineers at Bell Labs), Windows OSes are rubbish. Which is why MS has just lost in its long running marketing war against Apple.

3-4. Pentium? How old is the article you reference? Intel is a global corporation, owned by its shareholders. But most likely the i7 in my Mac was manufactured in China, not Israel.

5. Voicemail was invented simultaneously at IBM by Dr. Steven J. Boies (c.1975) and at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) by Stan Kugell and Edward McCreight. Another American invention.

6. A one-second google search says Cisco has R&D centers in Galway and Shanghai. Microsoft has them in England, India, and Australia. Lots of companies have R&D centers in lots of countries.

7. ICQ has been heavily criticized for privacy issues and many users consider later versions as bloatware. Availability of the services can be often under question, and proper message delivery is not guaranteed either. ICQ is often used for distribution of unwanted advertisements and spam.

8. Yes, Israel leads the world in airport and flight security. But ... what have they done for us?

9-19, & 34. Israel certainly is wealthy and well-educated. So ... why have you and I been paying it $1600 per year of our taxes for the last couple decades?

20. Israel is not a democracy. Of its 9 million people, 3.5 million cannot vote. As to "liberal" ... since when do liberal shoot people with whom they disagree?

21. I'm sure Ethiopia is a crappy place to live. So?

22. So?

23. Yes, they save 3 lives. But in the balance - 3 versus over a million dead in the Iraq war alone - that doesn't seem like more than a gesture.

24-29. So?

30, 32, 35. One word: naltrexone. Invented right here in the USA.

31. Still an average 195,000 deaths per year in US hospitals due to medical error. If you can name the system, maybe we can figure out if it's effective.

33. Artificial heart breakthroughs in the Japan and USA. So?

36. There's a helluvalot of solar R&D going on in California. What's the name of the Israeli company you refer to? What says their work has been important?

In general - I don't question that Israeli scientists and engineers are as useful as other scientists and engineers. The rest of this seems pretty irrelevant where it's not simply nonsense. So I feel you're still not answering me. You say we use them as much as they use us - but still don't see what they have done for us that pays back a fraction of what we have done for them.

I'm saving that one to my notepad if ya don't mind...just too funny & F.R. coming you way too

Feel free!

the rock solid Mac OSX,

O rly?

@Larrrs,

I have presented you with many facts and each time you ignore reality and continue on your single-minded attack of Israel

Faced with a point by point refutation, you just give up? I mean, can't you even try and back up your quote? A little?

hatefulness, ignorance and bigotry.

Larrrs, if you can quote anything I've said that is evidence of hatefulness, ignorance, or bigotry, I'll happily acknowledge and apologise for it.

Otherwise, perhaps you'd like to do some apologising. No offence - I understand you must be feeling a little upset judging by your emotional response. But really there's no reason for us to disrespect each other here on Newsvine.

How about you just have a good sit down and a relax, take a few deep breaths, and try again?

@Rhep,

You go make an OSX box BSOD, then come back and tell us all about it. Or go find us a real live Apple virus in the wild. Whoops, there aren't any.

Oh well.

Why would anyone waste time making a virus for 8% of the market? The time would be much better spent on an OS people actually use.

Ok, found one. That 12 seconds on Google tuckered me out!

@Rhep,

From your link:

[It] infects a machine only by downloading a pirated copy of iWork, the Apple productivity suite or Adobe Photoshop CS4. It does not spread from peer-to-peer on its own.

And it only affected a few thousand macs. Still, sure, score one for the bad guys. As for market - there are these funny things called iPods and iPhones, maybe you've heard of them? They would make a tempting target. But they're also based on good ole American UNIX - rather than on an OS created in the middle east ... for which mean time to infection is now less than 5 minutes ...

Meanwhile ... what was it this thread was about? Oh yeah ...

Petey M ,

In the presence of your clear bias and propaganda links I will continue
to refute the untruths you are attempting to spread . Anyone can go to
the homepage of the links you posted in #1.80 . There they can find a link to the archives .
Are they truthful or biased ? The lack of even one article showing Israel in a positive light clearly demonstrates bias .
For example this article portrays the Muslim Brotherhood in a favorable light . This is a dangerous terrorist organization with much destruction under its belt .

Didn't the iPad have a well publicised problem with security? Something Israel doesn't have (looping back to the topic).

;)

@Rhep,

Looks like the breach was something done by an AT&T web service, rather than specific to the device or its OS.

That said, The Ken Thompson Hack demonstrates there can be no such thing as perfect security. What this has to do with Israel ... not real certain about that.

A bit of a tangent to say the least.

SA,

The terrorists on the boat waited for the soldiers to rappell down, and attacked them.

So the soldiers defended themselves.

Simple.

As more detsails emerge, it is becoming clear that while the majority of those on the boats were indeed nothing more than "peace activists" (and hence-- no violence on 5 of the boats)-- many on one of the boats were quite different indeed! They came with one purpose in mind-- to commit violence. If there is any doubt in anyonne's mind, please take a look at thisa video I just seeded:

Video: Statements of Gaza Flotilla's Club & Knife Wielding "Peace Activists" about Their Readiness for Martyrdom

"Statements of Gaza Flotilla Members about Their Readiness to die as "Shahid"s (Martyrs for the Sake of Allah) "

There are a lot of details there-- it clears up a lot of what had been unclear!

@Krishna,

Compare the willing martyr in your video with Joeiraqi in 14.7 below::

I don't have anything against an enemy soldier trying to kill me. Like you said, that soldier is trying to do his job and get home to his family also. [...] Vote me home and I will come, vote for leaders who think it is the right thing to have me away, and that is where I will be, protecting all of our freedom.

Both men are willing to fight for their cause. Both are willing to die for their cause. Joe puts his life on the line to protect the freedom of our people. Your video martyr does it to win the freedom of his people.

A key difference is the martyr is not willing to kill for his cause. He has brought along no weapons, no bombs, no guns - just his own life. Like most pacifists, he has decided to die for two reasons: (1) to show that violence is not an effective deterrent for his cause, and (2) to shame his opponent into changing their behavior. And this is very clear in that he speaks to his family in the video in English. English is obviously not his native language - he uses it because he wants to send a message to us, not to his co-religionists.

This is the same non-violent strategy used effectively by Gandhi to throw the British out of India, by Mandela to end Apartheid in South Africa, and by Dr King to end segregation in America. The approach is called Satyagraha.

What these people want is the right to vote in Israeli elections, to run businesses and speak and assemble freely there - and to enjoy all the other human rights that Joe fights for on our behalf. It's not that this martyr doesn't want to get shot by a soldier - obviously he does. But more than that he wants to get aid to Gaza. Why should he be killed for wanting that?

This is the same non-violent strategy used effectively by Gandhi

Oh yeah ! This guy is a REAL Gandhi !

What these people want is the right to vote in Israeli elections

What they want is to kill or drive away all the Jews .

@nonStitiousZealot,

from the link you provided:

the displayed knife is a ceremonial dagger, traditional in Yeminite culture. It is not used for any agressive action.

Though I admit I wouldn't like to be on the pointy end of that thing, the picture of the guy in the pure white clothes obviously has nothing to do with events on the aid flotilla. As to your:

What they want is to kill or drive away all the Jews.

Where is your proof for that? I don't mean more hyperbole, red herrings, or other fallacies. I mean sources, links, facts. If you can't find such things, what's your point?

So the guy picked up the dagger to use ceremoniously and had no aggressive intent? He attacked the Israeli with love and peace in his heart? I'm sure that would be a comfort to the one receiving the pointy end. Do they shoot people with ceremonial bullets too when available? Is that also done with love?

NSZ...non violence at the end of a blade. That was actually a funny interlude, if sadly sobering. :)

I wonder if thats how the Aztecs did it? "No, no, no, thats just silly we are not going to cut out your heart and offer it up in sacrifice...thats just a silly ceremonial dagger, now lie back and close your eyes."

Man, that would've been terrifying actually.

Think I'd change religions. "Well honey I saw this nice little church down the street!"

Peter Merel #1.111 ,

the picture of the guy in the pure white clothes obviously has nothing to do with events on the aid flotilla.

Apparently your ability to read is selective .

who's who list of participants in this week's flotilla hailing from Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and beyond -- senior members of the Muslim Brotherhood, a former employee of Hezbollah's Al Manar network .....
It also identified the "cutting edge humanitarian activist", pictured below, as Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hazmi, a Yemeni MP from the Al-Islah party, which is close to the Muslim Brotherhood.

the displayed knife is a ceremonial dagger

That was a comment in response to the blog and not part of the blog .
ANYONE can leave a comment in response with no fact checking necessary .

Re: they want to kill or drive away all the Jews.
Where is your proof for that?

History starting in 1948 pretty much backs it up .
And the Hamas charter is rather revealing too .

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

@nonStitiousZealot,

Looks like the picture was indeed taken on the Marmara. But the dagger is a Jambiya, of which Wikipedia says:

Jambiya, or jambia is the Arabic term for dagger, but it is generally used to describe a specific type of dagger with a short curved blade that is worn on a belt. Although the term jambiya is also used in other Arab countries, it is mostly associated with people of Yemen. Men typically above the age of 14 wear it as an accessory to their clothing.

So while you could do some damage with that thing, it's hardly an AK-47 or IED. It's the same as if you were attacked by commandoes and you picked up the nearest steak knife.

And as for Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hazm, the guy is a member of the Yemen parliament, not a member of Hamas. Israel released him back to Yemen on June 5.

That was a comment in response to the blog and not part of the blog.

The comment turns out to be true. But weren't you the guy who said, "I am not poisoning-the-well so much as testing your well of information and finding the waters to be muddied and possibly toxic"

Hoist by your own petard?

There were quite a few dubious characters on that ship .
Sheik al-Hazmi was only one of many . Some of them declared
their desire to martyr themselves before the trip began .

I notice you chose to not comment on this part :

And the Hamas charter is rather revealing too .

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

So while you could do some damage with that thing, it's hardly an AK-47 or IED.

Seriously?? How does it matter if you're stabbed or shot to death, dead is dead!!

and the dead were not killed with ceremonial knives or paintballs.

Israel's military did the killing of civilians. I don't see any other way for Israel to attempt to justify those killings except to demonize the dead. They're not going to be able to defend themselves now.

If you try to stab with a knife or club with a metal pipe and your intended victims are armed with guns, you're gonna get shot.. blaming the victims for defending themselves doesn't make sense.. like saying a rape victim shouldn't have maced the poor defenseless rapist

LOL Cannot believe this argument is still going forward in the Liberal justification venue. "Wait! Don't blow up the planes that are aiming for the building! We don't know if the terrorists are actually terrorists!!!....(crash, boom, people screaming, jet fuel raining down along with dust and debris) Ok someone arrest them...those might possibly be terrorists! Ooops but remember make sure to read them their rights as is guaranteed to all presumed terrorists!"

Disproportionate force can only be exercised by the offending party. If those attacked used greater force than their attackers, that only proves that the attackerw were wrong AND stupid.

Good for Israel. Great to see them defending themselves against the terrorists.

Well, looks like you'd like to carry on the rah, rah club for militarist Zionism and the boo hoo club for how very persecuted they are and that whole bit is super tired and Orwellian in the extreme so I hope you've all gotten your moment to burnish your club bona fides against all my contrariness. C ya.

Disproportionate force can only be exercised by the offending party.

Correct. In this case that would be Israel.

Good for Israel. Great to see them defending themselves against the terrorists.

Interesting to see that you openly support crimes committed by the terrorist state of Israel.

Tell that to the families and victims of Cast Lead. Many of them were murdered by soldiers. Almost the entire world has called Cast Lead Disproportionate use of force--yet nothing ever happens to the poor Israel victim.

Interesting to see you put it that way Wheel. Were you on the boat?

Were you?

1.13 reported as personal attack.

LOL yeah let me know how that one works out for you. It was your words and now you want to cry foul?

Wheel

Interesting to see that you openly support crimes committed by the terrorist state of Israel.

#1.127 - Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:15 PM MDT

an·ti-Sem·i·tism

 

 /ˌæntiˈsɛmɪˌtɪzəm, ˌæntaɪ-/ Show Spelled[an-tee-sem-i-tiz-uhm, an-tahy-] Show IPA

–noun
discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.
Courtesy of dictionary.com

Do you know that Newsvine also has a policy against falsely reporting?

how can it be false reporting when you called wheel an Antisemite--in print right on the seed, open and shut COh violation on you Taao.

Oh man let me guess...Liberal right bealdomourji? Did he or did he not demonstrate open hostility against the people of Israel when he referred to them as the "terrorist state of Israel"? Its a simple question...really it is. It wasn't I that demonstrated antisemitism. But I understand your need to protect your buddys ass (actually its just so cute.) no matter how wrong you and he are.

taao - looks like you hit a nerve. Comment history on several posters shows a history of anti-Israel remarks.

Just sayin.

I did nothing of the kind. I stated a fact, Israel, as a nation and a political entity has engaged in deliberate criminal and terrorist acts. Being disingenuous about it changes nothing. Israel is a terrorist nation because of that fact, get used to seeing it.

voicing anti Israeli policy is not antisemitism. And no, I am not left or liberal , so guess again.

I am pro civil and human rights for all people including Palestinians.

This makes me pro human rights, not a left or right thing is it? Or are you saying that all on the right are anti human rights?

re : Wheel ,

Israel, as a nation and a political entity has engaged in deliberate criminal and terrorist acts.

Really no worse than most nations and far less than the very bad actors .
Wheel always attacks Israel but you do not hear him complain about other
really extreme national behavior . He does not whine about what Sudan is
doing in Darfur or what Turkey is doing to the Kurds .

LOL Think so mtherof3, I'm patiently awaiting my suspension for calling someone something they demonstrate doing. Hey Wheel who gave you the authority to declare Israel a terrorist nation? I so love the hypocrisy...you can be openly called a racist when you say "I did not now, nor will I ever vote for Obama!" But a person declares Israel a terrorist state openly spewing antisemitism, and the person that asks him if he has anything else to offer other than antisemitism is the person thats guilty! ROFLMAO! This is how they justify their hate and bigotry...nice!

Israel is a terrorist nation because of that fact, get used to seeing it.

Get used to getting called out.

Get used to being wrong and having it pointed out forcefully.

Forcefully? You mean bold type and caps!? *gasping*

LOL

Hey Wheel I'm still waiting to hear about who gave you the authority to declare Israel a terrorist nation?

Israel a terrorist nation? Are you kidding?

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/january052009/israel_attacks_1-5-09.php

The facts declare Israel a terrorist nation, I simply stated them...forcefully. No need for caps or exclamation marks...and most certainly no question about it.

If you get your news from Tim King, it's understandable.

How about his article in Ikhwanweb: The Muslim Brotherhood's Official English website.

Wow so you, and a newspaper in Salem Oregon have declared Israel a terrorist nation. Well shucks Gomer I'll be durned! Maybe you can dig up some form of other extremist publication to support your contention perhaps? So has the United States "declared" Israel as a terrorist nation yet? Or are they whats that word I'm looking for? Oh yeah a U.S. ally? So again I ask, but now we have to make it inclusive...I wouldn't want to exclude your lil buddy now would I? So do you have anything to offer concerning the aforementioned topic other than antisemitism? No? Didn't think so.

...and here we see the typical retreat to name calling displayed by all the zionist defender types when confronted with facts they can't refute but don't like.

Oh, and 1.149 reported as personal attack.

LOL I'm sure it will be just as successful as the first one...just go with your bad self!

Israel's own leaders in the past and their actions in the present all indict Israel. No need to look to the Muslim Brotherhood. The early leaders admitted it and the world now has computers and can see it. We have all seen it despite Israel's and the US Media's best efforts to hide their tactics. What do you call soldiers breaking the hands of random Palestinian boys of a certain age or depriving people of clean water and medicines, or using white phosphorus in crowded civilian areas, imprisoning hundred and hundred of Palestinian men , women and children for no apparent reason, blowing up people's homes, murdering peaceful, protesterspracticing collective punishment in a vile way? Just to name a few tactics? State Terror.

LOL I'm sure it will be just as successful as the first one.

You are correct. I only mention it because that happens so seldom.

Forcefully? You mean bold type and caps!? *gasping*

Rofl!!!!!!!!!! Hilarious!!!

Well shucks Gomer I'll be durned!

You guys are cracking me up:))

So you are saying that Israel declared Israel a terrorist nation? Wow I'm so impressed with your thought process. I mean really, you guys are just so brilliant! With Palestine having such supporters as you two...well who needs enemas! We should just chase all them Jews outta Auuumerka rights nows shudn't we'ins? Who does we'ins gets next? Is thar a bonfoire laters? Don'ts fergets the PBR!

We should just chase all them Jews outta Auuumerka rights nows shudn't we'ins? Who does we'ins gets next? Is thar a bonfoire laters? Don'ts fergets the PBR!

wow , what a wit.

Thank you, thank you (takes a bow), I'm here all week. Avoid the rush and buy your tickets early.

Lol:))

Well, looks like you'd like to carry on the rah, rah club

No.. try to stab or club a guy with a gun he's going to shoot you in selfdefense.. if there are a bunch of guys with guns you prob will get shot up a lot.. I seen video of a boat that didn't attack the soldiers and nothing happened.. what about don't attack soldiers or you'll get shot doesn't make sense??

@nonStitiousZealot,

There were quite a few dubious characters on that ship. Sheik al-Hazmi was only one of many . Some of them declared their desire to martyr themselves before the trip began.

The ship was entirely manned by civilian pacifists. These pacifists carried no guns, no bombs, no munitions of any sort. According to this account by Gilad Atzmon, an Israeli emigre, the ship was attacked in international waters by the IDF who began shooting passengers well before soldiers actually boarded the ship.

Seeing their fellows shot dead in front of them, some of the passengers certainly armed themselves with makeshift clubs made from iron rails on the ship, and whatever else came to hand. Some of the passenger did indeed prepare to die as martyrs, but it's not clear that these were the people who were shot.

As to your idea that the passengers were Hamas, the only account alleging Hamas supporters on board I can find on Google says the IDF suspected Ken O'Keefe, an ex-Marine American pacifist, of intending to join Hamas to train terrorists. On the face of it this allegation appears quite preposterous.

Can you provide names of any other Hamas on board?

1.146 bealdomorji and the rest who are verbally strafing Israel only. Let's be fair, Ok? LoL: from the Salem article..."Today's Israel began its existence as a terrorist nation. That is a hard fact for many people to accept, but it is true. Great Britain and the United States were complicit in the formation of the Jewish state in 1947-48, and both nations are presently aware that Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons pointing at its neighbors, as it lies to the world and claims to be a non-nuclear entity." Oh, really? Then Great Britain and the United States, whose C.I.A., and government, worked closely with Israel to help the State of Israel become a Nation, are just as guilty as Israel.......uhhh, so that means Americans are living and giving tax dollars to our "terrorist" treasury....oh, Please, get off the terrorist rant! You indicted yourself by putting up that article to counter all the pro-Israeli comments, I think. Would You welcome a foriegn nations military or terrorists to land in your "backyard", or even willingly let them into this country? I think not....Remember 9/11? Well, please justify and enlighten all of us "zealots" who believe a, now break it down, Sovereign nation, and that would be Israel, does Not have a right to protect themselves? Now, the nukes. Guess again about who helped, and gave them classified information and sent over scientists and military who had been involved with our own making and emplementing and testing. (One was my father, 1 of 7 UDT (underwater demolition testing) specialists, who armed, and trained these so called terrorist Israelis) These military/ C.I.A. operatives set off the nuclear bombs @ Los Alamos, Tortilla Flats, Bikini Atoll. From Oak Ridge, Tennessee, where the U.S. nuclear age started, and on down the line to Bikini Atoll - 22 atom bombs and 1 hydrogen bomb there.....the United States government from the President on down to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Nuclear Advisers. Israel has the right to protect all of that country's surrounding land and waters from an invasion of 1 or 1,000,000 people from bringing in arms or anything that would compromise their existence as a people who live in Their nation. Do you, or anyone with your mind set, think you know how many nuclear weapons the United States has and isn't telling us?....lmao, I didn't think so. Hold your horses and check your sources, would ya?

Peter Merel ,

the IDF who began shooting passengers well before soldiers actually boarded the ship.

I don't think that statement is supported by fact . I'm fairly sure you can't prove that and as such it is a scurrilous slander .

That article you linked gave not one shred of proof . Just a lot of hints
of how terrible the IDF was . It was also a biased source as the language used clearly indicates .

As to your idea that the passengers were Hamas

Where did I say that ?

I stand by my post. Pollard was a US naval intelligence officer passing classified info to a foreign nation. He was lucky he wasn't shot for treason. The idea that he is a hero? ridiculous. You are confused here Kathleen. We are NOT Israel. Other of their spies have been convicted of spying on us and then we are told we "should have been giving it to them" whatever they wanted--guess what? they don't get to decide that. TRAITOR. Pure and simple.

Kathleen: Israel and THE US are not the same entity. And I think you meant implementing , but I am not sure as your whole rant was off the wall. In most countries military officers caught doing what Pollard did get a bullet to the brain at the least, not made a hero by the ally that he was caught giving secrets to. Treason is considered worse than murder --an assault on the whole society.That Israel would even dare to try and make a deal on that , speaks volumes. Where should I get my info? The Israel approved press releases on our networks? please. laughable.

Was Pollard a US officer? did he pass classified info to a foreign country? yes and yes. End of story. ESPIONAGE. and then he whines about it? jeezze. What a crew.

Oh yeah Kathleen:
forgot to post this little link:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/motherofallscandals.html

An interesting link bealdomourji .

In general I would say that the URL is relatively unbiased .
As to that account of the events concerning J. Pollard , it
could be an accurate account [although I did not examine it
in detail ] . After reading it I can only say "So what ?" .
To make a case that what he did was high treason is not
justified . Does this leak amount to a dangerous security breach ?
I don't think so . I repeat my question : "So what ?" .

I repeat my question : "So what ?"

that seems to be the Israeli position along with, well the US should have given it to us anyway, or he is a hero , let him go free.

For me the two questions are:
1) Was he a US naval intelligence officer.
2) did he pass classified information to a foreign government

From the verdict and from the information I would have to say yes. This being said, if you asked the average American on the street about this I can almost guarantee that most of them , to a large percent would not know about it, and if told about it would not be pleased to know that we are sending support to a country that is involved in this kind of bold-faced behavior toward the hand that send them huge amounts of aid, loan guarantees.

So my point was that most Americans who support Israel per se, don't really know much about the behaviors (this being only one example--I provided more and was accused of bashing so I stuck to one example) that seems a blatant kick to the chops. If the stealing of the secrets were not bad enough. If the whole thing about loyalty and where it lies was ever shown in a poor light with the "the US should have given it anyway crowd", it was further damaged with the he is a hero crowd, and the demands that he get special treatment. Couple all that with those who have fled to Israel our supposed, no secrets between us, to avoid prosecution for crimes in the US against non Jewish American citizens (after the criminals change to automatic Israeli citizenship based on their mother or grandmother) and most Americans I think would correctly feel chumped and insulted.

Now you may disagree, but I don't think my premise, or argument is racist , antisemitic, a thrashing of the Jewish People, or any of the other things I have been accused of. I shouldn't have to name every other nation I have a problem with in order to have a criticism of Israel--it doesn't go the other way. I don't have to say I have a problem with Israel to say that I have a problem with Saudi Arabia for instance.

So say what you want. I do feel, and obviously so does our government, that this was in fact espionage and as he was an American US Naval Intelligence officer at the time passing classified information to a foreign nation (He was convicted) this meets the legal definition of treason, not hero.

To say "so what" in my opinion damages Israel's case that they are are true ally and that there is no problem of loyalty with dual citizenship, or with allowing people accused of crimes to flee to Israel to avoid prosecution (I am not talking Pollard--just in general this has been the case) but it makes it more difficult for people who do know these things to not be skeptical of actions Israel has been accused of (and convicted of in some cases) when they do these things and then react so badly when caught.

Hey bealdomourji question...what about those people who support Israel and their people? Are they traitors as well? Don't hold back now, let us know how ya really feel.

Come the time isrealo will suffer and Falastine will have power over it. Simple.

Actually if that happens, I do not believe that anyone will have power over Israel. I think the murderers will have sort of a field day there, they will get their wish of ethinic cleansing. Allah be praised! I wonder who their next targets will be if that ever happens, I wonder who will become their next victims.

Hey bealdomourji question...what about those people who support Israel and their people? Are they traitors as well? Don't hold back now, let us know how ya really feel.

If they are US Citizens , especially in the US military or government and they pass classified documents to a foreign government illegally? Yes that would be a traitor in my opinion.

What about your opinion taao, don't hold back either. If someone does what is outlined above, are they traitors? or not? which is it. If they support Israel yet pass classified documents to Israel(or any other foreign govt that they support) as US citizens are they traitors? I'd love to hear your answer to that one.

Well before I answer your question, instead of twisting and deflecting what I have asked...why don't you answer my question exactly how it was asked. I mean come on where is that big bad bealdomourji the one who wasn't afraid to show where he stood. Scared to state what you really feel?

I did answer it. Didn't you read it? Now you answer your part, or is that too much to ask?

see.

Yes, US citizens (even if they support Israel) are traitors if they pass classified information to a foreign government, Period. It doesn't get clearer than this. Pollard was convicted.

If they are US Citizens , especially in the US military or government and they pass classified documents to a foreign government illegally? Yes that would be a traitor in my opinion.

So Taao: Now it is your cocky little self's turn. So speak up, you have no trouble calling me out. So spit it out.Are they traitors or not?

So you are saying that "all" people not just those involved in the U.S. Military and government are traitors correct? If they support Israel right?

you read what I wrote. So can everyone else. You choose to distort it, and I don't want to get into any more juvenile pissing matches with you calling me big bad, and me calling you whatever I said cocky little self. Its stupid and unproductive and I am too old to act that way alright. I answered your question and said any US Citizen no matter what foreign country they are supportive of is a traitor if the pass classified information to that government. This is especially true if they are in the military or government where they may be in contact with sensitive information that only the government can decide who gets it. Since Pollard was convicted , I would say the US government agrees with me.

ANY US CITIZEN WHO KNOWINGLY CHOOSES TO PASS CLASSIFIED INFORMATION TO A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT THAT THEY SUPPORT IN VIOLATION OF US LAW IS A TRAITOR.

Clear enough?
Now what is your answer. Here fill in the blank. Cut and paste.

IF US OFFICER ILLEGALLY AND KNOWINGLY PASSES CLASSIFIED INFORMATION TO AGENTS OF A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT , HE OR SHE IS A TRAITOR.
A) YES
B) NO

taao: This is as easy as yes or no.

bealdomourji ,

First of all , from what little I know about you I have seen no
evidence of your being "racist , antisemitic" etc .

Although technically you are correct that it was spying ,
it could hardly be called treason . Was the national security apparatus
threatened by these actions ? How about the national security itself ?
Answers : both no . One thing is certain . Israel has provided invaluable
intelligence to the U.S. from a region that is difficult to fathom .
By providing Israel with a little of our intel we get back , maybe 10 fold
on our "investment" . I'm still saying "So what" but this time w/o the
question mark .

From your latest comment I see the word traitor in play .
I would have to answer no , not a traitor neither in intent nor effect .

Also your use of capital letters is starting to make you look
like a troll .

Ok bealdomourji, I'll answer your question because I know you are probably afraid the big bad Israeli's may take offense if you are actually honest. Most racism and anti semitism is nothing more than a person projecting their own personal fears.

Pollard was a scapegoat, crucial documents were withheld from his defense. He was given a sentence that went over and beyond the crime he was accused of, 20 years. Never has a spy in the employ of a friendly country received such a sentence. On average, spies working for countries considered US allies receive between 4-7 years in jail.

Did you know that Pollard was not actually convicted on the basis that he was spying for Israel? No? What many feared was the fact that the documents he passed would not be viewed by the Israeli's, but rather they could have possibly fallen into the hands of true terrorist nations and enemies of the United States.

Did you know that it was deputy director of the CIA Admiral Bobby Ray Inman. that violated the agreement between Israel and the United States? The agreement being a memorandum on U.S. and Israeli intelligence sharing. If it would not have been for this violation Pollard would never have been convicted.

Anyone else who doesn't think that it is a betrayal of the country to give classified secrets to a foreign government is welcome to say why. The definition of a traitor can be either a person who betrays their country in the opinion not of the person doing the betraying but of the country that he has sold out. The officer does not decide what can and cannot be shared with foreign governments. We did not have a declared war with Viet-Nam, but any military officer giving classified info to a foreign government about that conflict or about our military would also have been considered a traitor. Pollard tried to get out of his LIFE sentence by saying, but we should have given them this information. Well if he felt that way he should have gotten permission. obviously the US felt that it was against our interests for this information to be given to Israel. There are many unresolved issues between the US and Israel. We are NOT one and the same or interchangable. That is the point. No officer or person can decide to give classified information to a foreign government without betraying their oath to the US--they do not get to decide what is and is not dangerous for the US. Period. I don't guess taao is going to answer.

I'll try to make it simpler.

Is it ok for an officer in our military to give classified documents to a foreign government without authorization. Can he or she decide to do it because they support that country?

I say no. I guess taao, seems to think it is ok as he or she keeps arguing with me about it and making excuses.

The government seems to agree, He got the max sentence that is given outside of time of war--when he would have been possibly shot. Many on his side on the conflict repeat over and over that this is a time of war, and to me it is very unclear just who are enemies are. I just finished reading a really great seed by Hart, seeded by gideon Polya about the USS Liberty and the real story. This just convinces me more that we have in fact at least once and probably more times had our support for Israel abused to the point of an act or war and possibly treason by some.

bealdomourji

I'll try to make it simpler.

Personally I do not believe you can get much simpler. I'll continue to provide facts, you know those pesky little things you like to call excuses and you go right ahead and project your own personal hate some more. Because as we can all pretty much see, with the exception of your little buddy. You are basically, well alone.

bealdomourji

Pollard tried to get out of his LIFE sentence by saying...

Awww I see what part of your problem is. You are misinformed, I mean we pretty much knew that anyways. You have to stop getting your information from those little campfire chats. Pollard was sentenced to 20 years, not life.

@nonZealot,

I'm fairly sure you can't prove that and as such it is a scurrilous slander. [...] That article you linked gave not one shred of proof

The article quotes Jamal El Shayyal, the British Al Jazeera producer who reported live from the Mavi Marmara. If you have any evidence that El Shayyal is not a reliable source, please provide it.

El Shayyal, told an utterly silent audience he 'had been invited by IHH to film every inch of the ship.' So he did. From the bowels of the hull to the uppermost decks he filmed.

'I checked and filmed' he said 'there was not 1 weapon onboard. Not one gun. no lethal artillery. The most lethal thing on the ship was fruit and vegetables.'

At this point, just after four thirty am, Jamal saw a Turkish passenger shot in the top of his head. [El Shayyal] spoke slowly and clearly to make sure he was understood by us all in the hall.

'No Soldier was on the ship at this time'.

NSZ:
I apologize for the troll-like behavior of the caps. I should have walked away. I knew by the answer 1.174 that I was being baited. It was obvious. I mentioned that I wasn't really interested in that macho-banter where everyone calls each other cute little names. Its a drag and really not constructive.

Legally speaking as far as the constitutional term for traitor you are correct, but in the modern times with modern warfare waged the way it is, with covert wars, wars of information etc etc, I think it is different. In any case my original point was that it is difficult to trust Israel when we have people saying that it is ok for Israel to steal classified by this information and pass it on. As you know once it is passed on where it will end up is unclear as is the damage that it will do that the spy is unaware of as further ramification. That is why intelligence people work how they do. They are expected to respect the country they work for and stay within the chain of command--and certainly not give or sell classified information to a foreign government no matter how much they feel that it is ok, or that they "support" that country or if the country is an ally. (Iran under that Shah for instance was an ally too) but you are correct. I should have said that he betrayed his country. He betrayed the American people that he was supposed to be a part of and for whom , by being part of the intelligence body was privy to classified information, that he was responsible for protecting.

I have read the appeals etc etc and I don't believe that mr or ms Taao read the article that I posted. What I found interesting in all the articles and analysis of the situation was the supporters of Pollard and of Israeli spying (which as you can see in the article has been no small thing) is their inability to see or at least to admit that he did indeed betray the people he was supposed to be protecting. The most damning testimony to me was from non-other than Casper Weinberger. It was in the article but I will repost it:

But by far the most egregious damage done by Pollard was to steal classified documents relating to the US Nuclear Deterrent relative to the USSR and send them to Israel. According to sources in the US State Department, Israel then turned around and traded those stolen nuclear secrets to the USSR in exchange for increased emigration quotas from the USSR to Israel. Other information that found its way from the US to Israel to the USSR resulted in the loss of American agents operating inside the USSR. Casper Weinberger, in his affidavit opposing a reduced sentence for Pollard, described the damage done to the United States thus, "[It is] difficult to conceive of a greater harm to national security than that caused by... Pollard's treasonous behavior.

"

This is stated by Casper Weinbeerger --not me--calling Pollard's behavior "treasonous". So while it may not meet the constitutional definition fitting the time when written, some of the most prominent legal minds seem to find it treasonous.

This should end the suggestion that Israel's spies are harmless. They are not. The United States' nuclear deterrent cost an estimated five trillion taxpayer dollars during the 50s and 60s to build and maintain, and less than $100,000 for Pollard to undermine. Israel waited 13 years to admit Pollard had been spying for them, and now lobbies for his release, having granted him Israeli citizenship.

This kind of Israeli behavior really does a disservice to Jewish people everywhere who get tarred by a broad brush. I don't like that or think it is fair as there are obviously many who do not support this kind of behavior, but the more vocal supporters hurt Jews and Jewish Israelis and Israel's reputation worldwide and in the US. This was my point.

I am willing to argue any of this , but not with taao in the manner that the argument was headed,because I don't like being baited , or allowing myself to respond in a way that I am later apologizing for.

I think Pollard and Israel conspired to betray the US and put Americans and operatives in the Soviet Union at terrible risk, and destroyed years of defense intelligence worth for the proverbial 30 pieces of silver. To me(and the government) this means he is a betrayer and treasonous. After that it is semantics, is it traitor, or TRAITOR. In this you are correct, traitor, but the damage according to Weinberger and the government? Was in Capital letters.

(the quotes are from the link that I don't believe taao addressed or probably even read) I think you did read it.

Well shucky darns bealdomourji. I am just so hurt you no longer want to debate me! I really shall miss your words of hate and discrimination. Guess I'll just line up behind all the other traitors and await your final judgement.

bealdomourji ,

Here is another account of the Pollard event .

James Woolsey, former head of the CIA, has confirmed this was "a serious espionage case," but said it was not true that the information given to Pollard was leaked to other countries. He said the main issue was the U.S. fear that Israel's intelligence services might be penetrated by enemies who then could access the material Pollard passed on.

This is according to Wolf Blitzer in his book "Territory of Lies" .
Frankly I find Wolf Blitzer a far more reliable source than some URL
that seems to specialize in conspiracy theories .

LOL it is a paint gun 8) nice try

But from the muzzle flashes and weapon recoils

Actually there were no muzzle flashes . Look for yourself .
That would be the distinguishing characteristic of a paintball gun .

LOL it is a paint gun 8) nice try

Btw-- here's an interesting seed with lots more information about why they used paintball guns (some facts mosat people are unaware of):

Why did Israeli commandos use paintball guns aboard the Mavi Marmara?

nope, I still don't see anything funny about it.

diet coke. Larrs...thanks. LOL, Meloney, hon, you are making yourself look silly here. STOP. Please you are losing any shred of credibility you have left!

More footage of the scene has been revealed along with some analysis of the type of weapon used (not a paintball gun).

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/10/mavi-marmara-video-as-ammunition-in-the-battle-for-worlds-hearts-and-minds/

Minutiae. Picking a nit off an ant's ass.

They were terrorist affiliates, with no "humanitarian aid" on the boat.

They were treated with kidgloves compared to what they deserved.

So? You were decided before any information came out. I'm willing to incorporate new data into my assessment.

Meloney,

It's almost 2 weeks. There's been a significant amount of damning information brought to the fore. Are you completely discounting every bit of information against the terrorists? Are they completely innocent?

WTF are you talking about?

And more importantly, why am I even engaging you in this ridiculous dance that you do on every one of these seeds?

I'm not the moderator here, so you can tell me:

You really wanted to be a lawyer, didn't you?

I wanted to be a doctor, but I couldn't get more than a C+ in Organic Chemistry.

The truth behind what the video depicts will only become known if the soldiers involved face questioning and if all the existing video is made available to independent investigators. If the Israeli Defense Forces have nothing to hide, they should welcome an international inquiry.

oh, I'm not the only one who is waiting for the truth to come out. It gonna be a real long 2 weeks unless you just tune it out.

soldiers involved face questioning

Internally,Yes. International? no other Democracy will subject itself to such an investigation and Israel shouldn't either,Or we'd be seeing American,British soldiers in and out of investigations for years now. no one gets to investigate Israel's soldiers but Israel. You wanna talk to Bibi and Barak-be my guest. Soldiers,however,are a different story.

After the initial giddiness here over the claim that the weapon shown was a paintball gun I thought there might be some feedback on the observation:

the operator seems to be working a slide on the bottom of the weapon, and ejects at least one cartridge (indicating it’s not CO2 powered like a paintball gun);

observation

Please.

yeah, observation - one might look at the weapon and observe, recognize, it's characteristics. Such as the identification of the weapon as:

a silenced Ruger 10/22 .22-calibre bolt-action rifle with a modified stock

I have to rely of the expertise of others who are more familiar with these things.

uh huh - no cogent rebuttal or access to the observations of experts so you deny, mock, ridicule, insult, redirect...same ol' absence of substance.

It's not a paintball gun larrrs. You were wrong.

...I suppose you looked at it really close with a magnifying glass...

You must have done the same, calling it a paintball gun and all.

What conventional force is stupid enough to bring paintball guns?

I can tell it isn't a paintball gun because it does not have a hopper. Whether the weapon is lethal or not is another story.

in this specific instance the IDF indeed used paint ball guns...

No they didn't use a paintball gun in the specific shooting on the video. We weren't discussing "many forces" or if the IDF carried any paintball guns onto the Mari Marmara. I'll bring you back:

IDF Executed Mavi Marmara Victims with video

Again a blatant attempt at propaganda by lying.

LOL!

Thanks so much meloney for bringing that to our attention; you raise an interesting point ...

ROFLMFGO!~~~

.......the soldier is shooting a PAINTBALL GUN.

Remember that way up in #8? The soldier is not shooting a PAINTBALL GUN.

If the IDF had nothing to hide the more of the facts would have come out by now. In this specific incident we can see that it is not a paintball gun.

There may come a time when the soldier will open fire but these particular circumstances appear to show a willful excessive use of force.